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Dutch MP calls for ban on Quran

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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto, ON

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Dutch MP calls for ban on Quran Reply with quote


A Dutch member of parliament has called for the Quran to be banned in the Netherlands, describing it as a "fascist book" which calls on people to kill non-believers and rape women.

Geert Wilders, leader of the far-right Freedom Party, called for the ban in a letter published in De Volkskrant newspaper.

In his letter, Wilders compares the Muslim holy book to Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler's autobiography, and said the Quran has "no place in our constitutional state".

"I have been saying this for years: there is no such thing as a moderate Islam," Wilders wrote.

Wilders' Freedom Party holds nine seats in the Netherlands' 150 seat parliament.

Call for ban

Wilders also said several chapters in the Quran "call on Muslims to oppress, persecute or kill Christians, Jews, dissidents and non-believers, to beat and rape women and to establish an Islamic state by force".

The publication of the letter comes after a weekend attack on Eshan Jami, a young Dutch politician, who established a group to support people who have renounced Islam.

Jami, who was not visibly injured in the attack, is now under police protection as is Wilders.

"Ban this wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned! Send a signal to Jami's attackers and other Islamic radicals that the Quran cannot be used in the Netherlands as an inspiration or an excuse for violence," Wilders said.

Wilders acknowledged that his plan would not receive majority support in the Dutch parliament.

"I am fed up with Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants allowed. I am fed up with the worship of Allah and Muhammad in the Netherlands: no more mosques," his letter concluded.
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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam Aleikum,

This man knows exactly how to get publicity. In Holland, only the uneducated or racial extremist Christians take him seriously.

The ex-Sunni Muslim Eshan Jami was attacked by a 17 YEAR OLD KID, who just found another subject to focus his frustration on. Most of the death-threats given to these people are made by young frustrated Morrocans who are sick of being subject to racism and their low social status in society.

Mohammed B. the young man who killed the Dutch director Theo van Gogh, used Islam to justify his frustration.

Mohammed B. was highly educated but could get no job. He was involved in community service and was known to everyone as a very friendly and tolerant young man. After a long period of finding no job, although being highly educated, he got more and more involved in extreme Islamic groups and mosques.

He did everything the Dutch people demanded of him, tolerance, education, still he got nothing back. So his searched his identity and justification for his frustration in extremist Islam and finally found a perfect way out. He killed Theo van Gogh and hoped he would have been shot by the Police.

This is typical behaviour of a frustrated person that was scared of life and tried to commit suicide that was justified in the lines of his beliefs.

One of the human needs is to feel important. When you live in a society that surpresses this possibility, people will find ways in extremist ways to attain this feeling of importance. This accounts for the whole world.

Geert Wilders attains his feeling of importance by stepping on people's toes, and he is very good at it.
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 186
Location: dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Respected Arnold,

Let me first say that my gut emotional response would also kick in, if my own belief system were under attack. That being said, please view the following link:


Let me throw a big anvil into the pond of thought on this one. Take in particular, this one statement by a Muslim woman: "The officials had the gall to ask Muslim women to cope with the Dutch culture." Let that sink in.

Throw in people like Dr. Muqtedar Khan, scurrying around to conferences, such as the one in Brussles about a year and a half ago, where scholars gathered under invitation, to discuss Muslims and the West, and recognize that there really are distinct issues which must be addressed.

Here is one of the issues facing your generation. It is easier to harden a stance, than to soften a stance. This works in both worlds, West and East. Those who are already hardened, will harden their stance, such as the Dutch parliamentarian. But this hardening of stances is much more proactive in the Islamic world right now. So the challenge is this: To take the generation which is arising in the midst of the Ummah, sand off some of the rough edges, and work to soften some of the hardness which has come from teachings perpetrated by the hardest of the hard in your midst. I hate to use the phrase "damage control" but that is exactly what is needed, against those that preach such a hard-line doctrine of Bi'dah in the West.

It is interesting in merely reading of the Treaty of Al-Hudaibiyah how allowances were made in the wording of the preamble, to keep the process of negotiation on track. So even in this document, the give and take between enemies is noted for the greater good, is it not?

In Germany, Muslim families have sued to keep their children from mixed-gender activities in the schools, such as swimming and sports. The Chief Justice has ruled against these families. But things such as this, harden and do not soften the stance of the West against Muslims.

Muslims must be taught where to draw the line on allowances of the faith, and those things which are absolutely HARAM to the faith.

And for the families, such as the ones suing the German school system, to not violate their conscience they must choose a different option. Germany does not allow homeschooling. So their choices, are to leave Germany, or enroll their children in Islamic educational facilities.

These are merely my own thoughts, and I am open to rebuttal of my opinion.

Tammy Swofford
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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Tammy,

Let me throw in this huge Hulk Hogan size anvil of hypocrisy. What is the hypocrisy? There are many Jewish and Christian groups who also do not agree on mixed swimming. Many Orthodox Jewish schools do not have mixed swimming lessons, and also many Calvinistic and orthodox-Catholic schools do not have mixed swimming lessons.

There are also special days for Jews to go to saunas or swimming pools in some cities, where man and women are not mixed.

But are these groups pointed out? No.

Many beliefs and cultural behaviours of traditional Muslims are shared by many other religions and cultures. Many Calvinistic Christians in Holland are as firm and discriminating as orthodox-Christians, but these people are excused.

Why? Because the European/West culture is inherited from the Roman culture. If you are a citizen of Rome, you will not be pointed out, you are protected. Everything not Roman is barbarian and uncivilized and a threat, and thus must be controlled and surpressed.
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 186
Location: dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearest Respected Arnold,
Naturally, as you would surmise, I also dwell within the confines of Judaic scholarship, so your words have a familiar ring. I know a Jewish editor who is a strict orthodox. He most likely unscrews the little light bulb in his refrigerator prior to the Sabbath to make sure that he is in firm compliance of the multi-layered rulings of his faith. smile

What appears hypocrisy to you is merely an inconvenient truth, in this particular day and time. I can pull dozens of articles from MSM which speak of lack of assimilation by the Muslim immigrant to their host nation in the West. In the U.S. for instance, a Muslim family sued a Catholic parochial school for their daughter to wear hijab, as opposed to the established school uniform. Just a thought, Arnold, but if the family is so strongly constrained by hijab, why are they compromising by putting their child in a Catholic school in the first place? Perhaps, you can explain that to me?

What about Somali cabdrivers in Minnesota refusing to carry passengers who have purchased alcohol in the airport? Perhaps, you can explain that one to me? I wrote the airport review board on that issue and received a nice response.

Yes, every immigrant has the right to challenge the law. But no one should presume that in a court of law of a host nation, that their particular lawsuit will hold out against any law which has ample precedent and solid codification or is strongly supported by the local social mores.

I would not support a lawsuit by an Orthodox Jew to cause Gentiles to keep a kosher kitchen. But I support their right, to practice their beliefs in their home and within their place of worship. The public domain, belongs to all of us in America.

Tammy Swofford
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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Tammy,

It was not about Muslim people who do not intergrate into Western nations. Your examples have nothing to do with the subject, and some of them are hypocrite. When Muslims want seperate swimming, it goes against the custom, it is news. When Jews do it, there is nothing wrong, no news at all. Muslims are the lowerclass-majority, stand outside Roman/Western culture and are at this moment victimized.

Geert Wilders is an arrogant, racist, facist, illogical and war-mongering man. He doesn't see the difference between radical "Muslims" and the ordinary Muslim who is no threat to society. He directly says there are no peaceful Muslims and there is no acceptable interpretation of Islam or the Quran.

This is all just propaganda to attract the attention to him. Eshan Jami was attacked by a 17-year old kid that wanted to act cool in front of his friends. Has nothing to do with radical Islamists or whatever.

This is the whole discussion. And the Muslims who do not intergrate, mostly adhere to the Wahabi form of Islam. The form of Islam from Saudi-Arabia which America supports. They allow it to rule mosques, schools, university studies and so on.

If you want people to intergrate, then fight the Wahabi form of Islam which is supported and funded by your ally, otherwise do not complain about intergration.
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 186
Location: dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearest Arnold,

Do we support Salafi Islam or did it somewhat catch us unawares, beginning into the early 1980's and moving on into the 21st century when 9/11 was our wake up call? The agency in Virginia (if memory serves me) which vets and controls the physical property of the majority of U.S. mosques is distinctly Salafi in outlook.

Our laws allow for freedom of speech. As such, there is the "Hal Turner" site which allows for blacks to be called "niggers" and Jews to be mentioned by neo-Nazi's on the site as pigs to be mowed down with semi-automatic weapons. The idiot, claims to be a Catholic, and I have also had discourse with this man, who has a brain the size of a pecan, on final analysis. He hides behind our laws which allow for freedom of speech.

Regarding the House of Saud, they do fund eighty percent of the masajid in America and fund many scholars at the university level in the U.S.A. They give huge endowments for Islamic Chairs. The more moderate scholars are intentionally marginalized. Money talks. So in a sense, there has been an allowance on our part, has there not?

For years, the UK sat on their thumbs while radical imam spewed hate against the host upon whose very soil they stood, at the Finsbury Park Mosque in London. All of a sudden on 7/7, the Bobby's in London are busy scraping DNA off a post next to a bus and Londoner's are encased in a giant sarcophogus in the tube system. Bloody hell! They really "did" mean it when they were chanting things about death to the west. What a wake-up call, Arnold.

Sarkozy is the one to watch regarding Muslims and the west. He will set the pace in France and his first one hundred days in office he has moved forward in a strong and proactive manner.

I am merely a spectator in the stands. But I have been a spectator for many years now. In spite of what you may believe, I retain a fond regard for you, and the members of this forum. I am sorry that Muslims are in a "circling the wagons" mode in many situations now. But the seed of what was allowed in Finsbury Park and other mosques has now produced a discernable weed which is hard to pull up. Get your gardening tools, Arnold. This one, has a deep root system in place in the soil of the west.

Tammy Swofford
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Quasim Hamdani

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are intelligent people who happen to be religious and there are religious people who are also intelligent. The difference is in how they choose to apply their intelligence. The first group is amenable, accommodating, and flexible, while the later group is obstinate and unrelenting in their demands for exclusivity. Obviously there are varying levels of lifestyles between these two extremes.

As a student of the Qur-an, I choose not to view the world through the prism of religion. I like to understand peoples' motives, and if they happen to be inspired by religion, then these religious beliefs must be considered and weighed against the legal and social norms. I am also a big fan of the American constitution – it is not the perfect document, but I believe it is one of the best. The fundamental assertion of the American constitution is to protect the minority from the majority. This assertion protects (should protect) people from various backgrounds from the ‘majority’ onslaught. Now each culture, religion, lifestyle is based on intelligent rationalization that we imbue in our children so that our intelligently rationalized ways can continue to survive and prosper. Every choice that deviates from the American norms must be considered, and when possible, room must be made for their inclusion – that is the American way.

The Western and Eastern modalities are mere rationalized norms nurtured over centuries of practice. When these norms are judged against the Qur-anic standard – Serve Allah by serving humanity, they loose their luster. It forces people to come out of their comfort zones and reach out to other human beings, turning the debate from rights, respect, acceptance to inclusion, service, and humility. When mankind makes this transition, the human intelligence is freed, which will turn this earth into paradise.
May Allah Bless You.

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