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"A Jihad for Love" ???
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crschatz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: "A Jihad for Love" ??? Reply with quote

I don't really understand how Muslims should deal with the gay and lesbian Muslim community (practicing homosexuals, not observing celibacy). I certainly don't believe in violence or persecution, but I'm having difficulty accepting this as a "normal lifestyle" compatible with Islam. Please let me know what you think Sisters and Brothers!

This film just got a review in The Washington Post. The film's website is www.ajihadforlove.com/ It was also written about in the new magazine (quarterly) Emel:Rethink Muslim. (I can't tell what I think about that magazine. It's certainly different from any other Muslim magazine I've seen in my life...)

From The Washington Post:

Gay Muslims, Victims of 'A Jihad for Love'

By Philip Kennicott
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 5, 2008; C02


The relationship of Ferda and Kiymet is one of the few light moments in "A Jihad for Love," Parvez Sharma's documentary about homosexuality in the Muslim world. The two Turkish women laugh and touch in public, and in a poignant scene, Kiymet meets Ferda's 80-year-old mother. The introduction goes well, and the three women sit together and joke about life and love.

This kind of normality is absent in the lives of Sharma's other characters, most of whom have had to make wrenching choices between pursuing love and remaining within the embrace of traditional societies. Payam, a gay man who fled persecution in Iran, calls his mother from a phone booth in Turkey to update her on his hope of political asylum in Canada. He can hear her weeping -- which makes him break down.

"She said she was cutting onions but I could tell she was crying," he tells his friends, who try to comfort him.

Payam shows his face in the film, which was produced by Sandi Simcha DuBowski, the director of "Trembling Before G-d," a 2001 documentary that focused on homosexuality among Orthodox Jews. Amir, another young man who fled Iran, keeps his face hidden, but we do see his lacerated back, covered in red stripes after he was lashed for being gay.

"When I took off my shirt, she cried," he says of his mother, whom he has left behind.

Sharma's film also includes chapters devoted to two lesbians caught between Paris and Cairo, a gay imam in South Africa who is attempting to educate fellow Muslims about homosexuality, and Mazen, a young Egyptian man arrested in the infamous "Queen Boat" raid of 2001, in which Egyptian authorities rounded up gay men at a popular disco along the Nile. The case made international headlines when the men were paraded before cameras before being sentenced to prison terms. Mazen served a year before moving to France, where he is now a refugee. When he recalls the beatings and the rape he suffered in prison, he weeps. And he, too, left his mother behind in Egypt.

You get a good sense of the challenges the director faced by visiting the film's Web site, which helps flesh out some of the detail left out of the 81-minute film. Anyone with even a glancing knowledge of the Muslim world will wonder: Where is the rest of the picture? Why is there nothing about the thriving subculture of sexual hookups -- not hard to find on the Internet -- in even some of the most repressive Islamic countries, including the Persian Gulf states? Or more discussion of countries such as Indonesia (with the world's largest Muslim population), where there is relative tolerance? And what about the history of sexual permissiveness that many Westerners (men such as André Gide, Oscar Wilde or Paul Bowles, who might well be labeled sex tourists today) discovered in Muslim North Africa?

These aren't trivial asides, given the deeper cultural issues they raise. The conflict between homosexuality and Islam is often depicted by Muslims as a conflict between Western decadence and authentic religion. But Islam has many subcultures of homosexuality -- which the West may sometimes exploit, but certainly didn't invent. And the Internet hasn't just reframed the issue as a conflict between globalized modernity and traditional society, it's facilitated rapid access to new ideas (not just about sex) that threaten religious dogmatism.

But Sharma is right to keep his focus tight. He is interested in the faithful, and their conflicts, not the broader cultural issues surrounding sex and Islamic society -- though he can't help but show the second-class status that women generally suffer in many Islamic countries. His focus on religion -- and this particular religion's almost universal hostility to same-sex love -- means that there can be no answers to the spiritual searching of many of his characters. Which leads to a strange division of sympathy in the viewer. Sharma's characters want acceptance from people who refuse to give it, and at some point, you want to tell them: Leave. Get out. Be done with the madness that oppresses you.

Mazen, the Egyptian man, has perhaps made some progress to that end. As he watches his own trial on television, he spits at the screen. But others, including Muhsin Hendricks, the imam from South Africa, are determined to stay within Islam and fight for reform. He raises the idea of "ijtihad," which he describes as a long-lost tradition of independent reasoning, as a way "to find space for us within Islam." This is a popular idea among liberal Muslims. It's not yet clear that it's an idea with much traction in the majority of the Arab Muslim world.

One telling detail is worth noting: The little blur that obscures faces of people too terrified to be open about their sexuality is also used to add humor or provoke. In one instance, a penguin in South Africa is given the obscured identity treatment -- a sly reference to the species' predilection to homosexuality? In another, more powerful scene, the Koran is obscured as Mazen, who suffered so much in prison, shows his face directly to the camera. And thus the director raises the question that haunts the whole film: Who should feel shame, gay Muslims, or the Muslims that oppress them?

A Jihad for Love (81 minutes, at Landmark's E Street Cinema) is not rated, and contains sexual content.
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Dr. Shabbir
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sister Courtney, Wa Salaamun alaikum!

The speed at which you have acquired knowledge amazes me, Ma-Sha-Allah.

I waited for some other sister or brother to comment on your thoughts about homosexuality.

Inspite of the ongoing debate whether homosexuality has a genetic component to it or not, I am quite clear in my mind that it is not uncontrollable and it is NOT compatible with Islamic life-style. Abnormal sex is not a necessity of life like like food and drink. The sexual desire begins with thought and not with life-sustaining urge.

Although I have done no scientific research personally, I believe that it is a matter of nurture and learned behavior. This conclusion is based on my close observation of homos in different cultures and countries. Most often in the subcontinent, it begins with transvestite behavior and that is where they need intervention with proper counseling.

The website you mentioned, stopped on me after about one minute.

Even if we concede for a moment that genetics might be at play here I have not seen it running in families. Then, aren't humans endowed with free will?

The Big Picture of the Qur'an further convinces me of the conclusion that it is an abnormal cultural trait that is plain lewdness. The People of Prophet Lot had gone so forward that they had no shame in committing it in public so much so that it had become a status symbol of modernity in them.

Islam is all about self-restraint. Some people might be born with predilection to obesity but fat does not come out of thin air. Those with a tendency to quick temper must divert it to creative energy. Talkative people can easily think before they speak.

Homosexuals who fall to their aberrant, perverted desire must control it and they will learn to behave normally very soon. The Qur'an prescribes the following for the violators:

4:16 If the two of you spread such immorality or lewdness in the society, punish both of them (as determined by the appropriate court of law). But if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. God is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful. [This verse includes homosexuality, male and female.]

24:32 And marry the singles among you, (whether they are widowed, divorced or bachelors). They may marry the righteous among your male and female servants. If they are poor, God will enrich them with His bounty. God is of Infinite means, and He knows all things.

24:33 Let those who cannot find a match keep chaste until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty....

Dear Sister,

Did I miss your email again or you have been busy?
_________________
Wassalam,
SA


Last edited by Dr. Shabbir on Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam Aleikum all,

Dr. Shabbir wrote:

Inspite of the ongoing debate whether homosexuality has a genetic component to it or not,


No, it has nothing to do with genes. Evolution will only create a gene when it is needed for a direct function, sexual deviation has no 'suvival' function, and so no gene is created for this.

In nature homosexual behaviour is only present when the hormones are on such a high level that the it doesn't matter anymore what the partner is. To give a simple example, dogs that rub up your leg...

In nature we only have 1 proven case where homosexual behaviour is created through affection and that is with the Bonobo monkey, our close relative and cousin of the Chimpansee.

Chimpansees have homosexual among their males because in a group you will have an Alpha male who is the only one allowed to have sex with the females, and so the young males have sexual contact with each other to release the hormones.

Among Bonobo's you don't have a male-dominance, but a female-dominance/equality among male-female. Chimp's live in sort of tribe-families who also wage war with each other, while the Bonobo just live in families and never wage war on other groups. Also they avoid conflict within the group and form deep friendships with other members. Sometimes this friendship is expressed in homosexual behaviour. In a sense, it is a form of strenghting the bond. Thus it is not love or real affection, but a social ritual.

Among humans we have different ways to strengthen the friendship bond, and so we do not use sex for this. We have other social rituals.

Homosexuality is very complex and has several 'causes'. To start with dear Doctor, I have to disagree that Homosexuality mainly starts with transvastite behaviour. Only a small percentage (around 20-40%) of Homosexuals will cross-dress or has the urge to be like the opposite sex.

I have many co-workers who are gay and married to their partner, and I have interviewed them and many others how homosexuality developed. Also my uncle was gay, and i had a boy at my elemetry school who was more female then male in his intrests and actions.

So this is a list I have compiled of causes, there are 3 main factors:

Biological:
1. During pregancy the Hypophesy switches from male to pre-domaninatly female hormones, and thus causes the body to be male, but many important structures of the brain to be female.
2. During youth or adolescence a hormone switch occurs which makes the male or female have opposite hormones and thus changes the sexual attraction to the own sex.
3. Both male and female have male and female hormones in them, but male's have more male hormones then female and for females of course counts the opposite. Some people have a bit more mixed balance, and thus stand in the middle. This causes their sexual attraction to fluctuate.
4. Simple lust. As Males have a higher sex-drive then females, some males thus turn to each other as they have similair lusts levels.

Psychological:
1. The famous Psychiatrist Jung stated beautifully. All psyches are a balance between male and female. When one side gets unexplored, for example by having a non-dominant father, the male side of psyche of the child is unnurtured and seeks this with other males when growing up.
2. Psychological damage which causes a wrong placement of sexuality. When a child of non-confident is harrassed and/or abused by the same sex, then that person will project their sexual feelings also on the same sex as this is the only relationship they were taught and understand. As the person's first experience with sex was by the same gender, then this becomes the pattern for later on.

Sociological:
1. No boundaries on what is sociological acceptable and useful. And thus people will experiment just as with drugs.
2. Trend.

Thus we see homosexuality is extremely complicated and there are 'treatable' cases as with the psychological and certain hormonial causes.

But some are truly born gay. They do not want to be female, they feel themselves male. But, their sexual drive and affection can only be directed towards the same sex. This is because the part of the brain that creates this, has formed in the opposite from normal. Thus such a person cannot even fall in love with the opposite sex, nor will it ever feel comfortable in such a relationship.

Then we also must understand that the majority of mature homosexuals are just as monogamous as heterosexuals. Almost all gays I know are married to their steady-partner. Thus the idea that homosexuals have no morality and are only focused on sex and adultery is a false concept.

This is the reality we observe through science, biology, sociology and psychology.

I can understand that many will not feel comfortable with the concept of homosexuality due to their cultural background and the stigmata people have fixed in their mind, which thus creates an already negative attitude to the subject and the possibility of accepting a middle ground.

The story of Lot deals with homosexuality, yes, undeniable, but In the story of Lot, it describes a society which have open sexual orgies (29:29), are racist to any foreigner (15:70), are fascistic enough to rape anybody they wish from outside their society (11:77-80), looted the caravans and traders (29:29), and at the same time had homosexual relationships while being married to a wife also (26:166).

Interesting is that the city of Lot is probably Bab edh-Dhra, which archeologists describe as probably one of the first cities in that populated area, being around 10.000-12.000 years old, and being the oldest known that has a fortified wall surrounding it. Could it be that they were the first civilization that didn't had a king or single ruler who created the social construct for them and that they were the first free city run by its people? The Quran says they were the first to commit the act of forsaking their wives, and rather pursuit their own gender in an open way (29:28-29). Sounds like a society that was trying to understand and form a new social construct not based on kingship rule or tribal ruling. As I cannot accept that homosexuality was never done before them, I think it rather refers to open homosexual activity.

Anyways, what I am trying to say is that in my view, the story of Lot condemns the WHOLE society converting to perverse, for being racist and fascist, and for terrorizing the surrounding area. In 11:117 it says clearly that a people will not punished as long as they are Muslihoon, people who do salaha, reform society to a good and social one.

The people of Lot where clearly doing the opposite, 1 or 2 homosexuals in a town or city cannot be punished for committing homosexuality in the privacy of their own house, as they still can be part of the social construct of a society and be Muslihoon, social progressive people. But when the whole city is indulged in orgies, and men forsaking their duties as husbands, then the social construct is in danger, and then they cannot be Muslihoon.

Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE, that every person in the city of Lot was really homosexual in nature. So it is important to question: Did they commit homosexuality without being homosexual? Was this also a factor involved as we look at their wives being mentioned (26:166)?

4:15-16 are important, but as the verse states, we cannot judge every homosexual when you need 4 witnesses and you cannot break the privacy of a home (24:27-29, 58-59; 33:53). This means only open homosexual acts can be reported and punished, and of course open heterosexual sexual misconduct, as these can corrupt society and thus the social construct which makes a society Muslihoon or not.

I do not promote nor condemn homosexuality as I believe there are treatable and untreable homosexuals, so a solution must be sought that makes a difference between these 2 and then creates a solution so both can live full lives in peace.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam all,

This is something I wanted to write on for some time now. As long as I have seen where homosexuality is concerned it is and has been part of almost every society in the world. But dear Arnold you talk of what you see in the society whose upbringing is all wrong. Homosexuality has something to do with psychological and social/cultural behavior but as far as physiological make is concern, we still need to be convinced by any authentic research.

You say it is not condemned in Deen but only when it is done on the level that starts damaging the society, so isolated cases living and doing and even propagating what they do should not be bothered with. Well that does not make sense because from which point would you start to say this it has gone far enough and should be stopped? when this becomes so called trend, will it then be fair to people who already are living such lives for sometime now and when they were led to believe first that it is perfectly accepted way, to suddenly halt their ways? Is it as easy as telling them to stop using too much sugar as it is considered more harmful now? How will you start punishing people then? Will it be already not too late? How can a natural Deen allow such fitna in creation, but this is exactly what that society did and got punished?

Besides everything verses 7:80/81 makes it very clear what is lewdness and thus forbidden that it’s not about doing it in open or by force but about making wrong choice other wise Allah SWT would never had said “…you choose men (for whatever reasons) instead of women…”, to do what exactly- you said it’s raping and looting, so what is meant by instead of women then??? So dear it is all a matter of choice!

So I agree with Al-Quran, Allah SWT is too kind to punish someone over something that is not his/her fault but for something that is not natural and damaging thus cannot be accepted and allowed to flourish under a pure Islamic society and homosexuality by no means can be considered natural and allowable act. As far as punishing individuals under these circumstances, I agree with you it cannot be feasible when it has become a widespread chronic disease of the society, but needs to be cured gently through proper consulting and first educating people about the true Deen so they understand their purpose-which I think is the main cause behind this behavior. They must be guided first and told this is not something that cannot be controlled but something that needs to be and for their and humanity sake. They must be helped to find what they lack in a way that is more natural and only a society based on Quranic laws can do it best.

jazakAllah
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam sister,

UmeAimon wrote:
Salam all,
Homosexuality has something to do with psychological and social/cultural behavior but as far as physiological make is concern, we still need to be convinced by any authentic research.


Dear sister, it is common knowledge among scientists that different hormone compositions can occur during pregnancy which can create for example a male body with a female brain, partially or whole. Biology and biological development is never in the extremes, you never have exact this amount or that amount. It always fluctuates between different levels, and so it is completely scientific logic that 5 to 10% of the world population has this.

As one who has studied Biochemistry, to me it is not a surprises nor anything to doubt.

Please see for example these studies:

http://www.nl.bol.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/nl/-/EUR/BOL_DisplayProductInformation-Secondary?BOL_OWNER_ID=1001004005820469&Secondary=description&Section=BOOK_EN

http://www.nl.bol.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/nl/-/EUR/BOL_DisplayProductInformation-Start?BOL_OWNER_ID=1001004001584527&Section=BOOK_EN

UmeAimon wrote:
Well that does not make sense because from which point would you start to say this it has gone far enough and should be stopped?


Only when public safety is in danger.

UmeAimon wrote:
when this becomes so called trend, will it then be fair to people who already are living such lives for sometime now and when they were led to believe first that it is perfectly accepted way, to suddenly halt their ways?


This shows a lack of experience. In Holland it is allowed and respected in society. Studies has shown this has NOT trickered an increase in homosexual behaviour. The levels on earth will always remain between 5-10% of natural homosexuals.

To make sure non-homosexuals not get attracted in homosexuality is done through education and to pursue self-development and discovery already from an early age on. In this way natural homosexuals can fall under the laws of nikaah, where contracted relationships are allowed and thus make sure all sexual behaviour is within legal grounds.

Studies have shown the majority of mature homosexuals are monogamous, and thus an option of contracted relationships (nikaah) can be made up.

The words rijaal and nisaa and azwaj can all be approached without gender, as rijaal means a person who walks freely, which in Arabian society was of course the males. Nisaa means something weak or left behind, which were women in Arabian society. This is how our current understanding of rijaal and nisaa came to be. Nisaa is not only a plural word with no singular as is common thought. The root is Nun-Sin-Ya.


UmeAimon wrote:
women…”,


The verse says AZWAJ, meaning your spouses/wives married to you. the verse does not use Nisaa, women in general. Thus it makes clear that the people of Lot were not natural-homosexuals. Which is also impossible a whole city for to be homosexual. Their behaviour comes closer to homosexuality as recorded in Roman culture where a man stood above women and younger men. And so to express his authority, to have sex with the younger males was encouraged, as it was an expression of power.

Also the verses condemn the Shahwat between the men, meaning lust, greed, craving. Thus it shows that it is not based on affection, but on pure lust, which can be projected on men and women alike. Affection and love can not, or rarely.

This of course is a true fahisha behaviour as it is not based on natural self-identity of the persons, but on expression of hierarchy. Please see this study:

http://www.nl.bol.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/nl/-/EUR/BOL_DisplayProductInformation-Secondary?BOL_OWNER_ID=1001004001918012&Secondary=description&Section=BOOK_EN

UmeAimon wrote:
chronic disease of the society, but needs to be cured gently


To use these words shows the subject is not approached objectively but with clear preconceived notions and prejudices. Scientific research clearly shows a different side of what homosexuality, that it is not a ' disease', but a logical biological and psychological development among higher developed mammals.

I have studied long on this subject and the words the Qur'an uses, and still I am careful to jump to conclusions, but I know the Qur'an reflects reality and justice, and not our preconcieved notions.

This is why it is so important to always stay objectively.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam Dear Arnold,

This is interesting. I try my best to stay objective and am honestly trying to understand your points. So lets take it step by step maybe my understanding is not corrrect, please tell me where in verse 7:81, the one I was reffering to, the word Azwaaj is used and how you see what I asked you earlier?

jazakAllah for your efforts.


UmeAimon
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UmeAimon wrote:
Salam Dear Arnold,

This is interesting. I try my best to stay objective and am honestly trying to understand your points. So lets take it step by step maybe my understanding is not corrrect, please tell me where in verse 7:81, the one I was reffering to, the word Azwaaj is used and how you see what I asked you earlier?

jazakAllah for your efforts.


UmeAimon


Wasalaam dear sister,

In my first post I referred to verse 26:166, where ازواجكم azwajikum is used, your spouses/wives. This means the men in Lot's story were married. This is very important as this adds the element of adultery to the story. In 7:81 the verse says they project their greed/lust-shahwat on men instead of women-Nisaa, when we link this to 26:166, it is clear these men were not natural homosexuals, but used homosexual behaviour as a form of expression of male-dominance as it was Roman culture. This can be seen also in their aggressive responses to Lot.

Personally I can not believe any natural homosexual would respond in this way, next to this is it impossible for a whole city to all be natural homosexuals, this has never occured and will never occus, since it will always be a low percentage of natural homosexuals 5-10%.

The Qur'an also only mentions Shahwat/lust and never Hubb/love. Lust can be projected on anything, without any emotional affection or bond. It can be projected on the same sex, on animals and a week ago a man was caught on film while doing it with a Humvee(!). I remember that around 2 months ago, a man was brought to the hospital as his genetials were stuck in a park-bench. Yes, the man had tried to have sex with the bench. So as you can see, the term Shahwat/lust describes a human instinctual behaviour that turns the person in a blind animal.

This we see clearly in the story of Lot.

About 2 years ago I started to research this subject, when it became clear to me that the Qur'an only judges someone's humanity, someone's good behaviour towards society. In my surroundings there are many gay-people who are the most friendly and humanistic person's I know. Many were also married or in long-term relationships.

So I started to question them also why they were gay. And in almost all cases they told me they had denied it till they were around 28-30. They had tried relationships with women, but they all failed because, as they themselves explained, they could never project their love on them. Their was affection and love, but on a friend level, and not on a lover level. They all couldn't fall in love with a woman. I haven't interviewed any lesbians, but I assume it is the same for them.

When 2 persons love each other, this is expressed in a bodily relationship, so the Hubb/love comes before the Shahwat/lust. This is with heterosexuals and homosexuals. But between 2 people, there could also be just pure lust. They meet each other, are attracted, eventually end up having sex, and then finally never meet each other again or have a real relationship. This is sex purely based on Shahwat/lust and not on Hubb/love.

As the Qur'an is the book of reality, I knew there had to be something wrong with our understanding of the story of Lot. As I cannot accept that the Qur'an would condemn a reality, while professional scientific objective studies have shown that people are born gay. I also was pointed out yesterday that new research have shown a function for the gay-gene for survival within higher mammals, so then it would even be part of our genetical make-up.

How then could we deny reality? These people can truly only fall in love with their own sex. They should deny it and live in Hell on earth? They should hide it from public as we want a state of denial of reality? Isn't that Kafara/denial/burying the truth?

The Qur'an attacks love-less Shahwat/lust between men, men who are not natural gays. This is the same as the love-less adultery between hetero-sexuals that is condemned in the Qur'an.

This is why acceptance and research is the true key in my eyes. In this we can learn to form a true balanced society. If homosexuals in society, which will always remain stable around 5-10%, a real minority, want a relationship, they must get married as everyone else. In this way sexual behaviour is contained within contracted relationships and thus we protect society, and the homosexuals are then productive, happy and productive fellow-citizens of the society.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam again Arnold,

My question was about verse 7:81, the first verse about Lut’s nation. We will come to 22:166 inshahAllah but first please come to the point I asked about. There is no mention of lust in this verse. It comes in verse 27:55.
Even there my question remains the same why did Allah SWT says “satisfy your lust on ----- instead of ……..” I left it like that because even if we go by your definitions, why is Allah saying “instead of “.
You say Nisa can mean men and women both but perhaps gays and “ the natural ones”, even then why would Allah use the words, when according to you when people fall in love they express them selves through sex and only then it’s NOT LUST and linking it to 22:166 you say it's that they were married to the Nisa (of your defination)! Even then these verses do not make any sense !! Allah SWT is saying why satisfy your LUST on men or women you don’t naturally love or are not married to, rather with the ones you naturally love and are married to !!!
WHAT? satifying your lust with married and partners you love! so here goes your idea about LUST! Can you see the clear contradiction dear?

I’ll come to your understanding of 22:166 in next post and the words nisa and rijaal when used as AlNisa and Al Rijaal and the love and the lust and why you're thinking on these lines Smile
But please first clarify your understanding on THIS point of why would Allah use those words as I highlighted earlier.

jazakAllah

UmeAimon
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UmeAimon



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Posts: 141
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops! sorry for the mistake 7:81 does talk about shahwat, but the point remains the same as explained later Smile

jazakAllah
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam dear sister,

UmeAimon wrote:

You say Nisa can mean men and women both but perhaps gays and “ the natural ones”, even then why would Allah use the words, when according to you when people fall in love they express them selves through sex and only then it’s NOT LUST and linking it to 22:166 you say it's that they were married to the Nisa (of your defination)!


In 26:166 it is clear from the context that Nisaa here refers to their wives. When I say Nisaa, Rijaal and Azwaj can be approached gender-neutral, I am referring to the verses that talk to us and about us when it comes to laws of marriage, crime and economic situations.

For example, in verse 4:34 it is normally understood as the men are the caretakers of women. But the verse can also be read as the financially independent (rijaal=walking freely) are the caretakers of the weaker ones in society who are left behind (nisaa=the other, to be weak, to stay behind). Thus becoming a gender-neutral verse. When you read Surah 4 from verse 1 to 34 it discusses many economic and social issues, and thus fit the context clearly.

This of course does not account for all verses using nisaa and rijaal, since some of them through context are clear to be referring to genders. But there are also many very important verses where the words can be understood as gender-neutral. 4:34 is just one example out of many.

UmeAimon wrote:

Even then these verses do not make any sense !! Allah SWT is saying why satisfy your LUST on men or women you don’t naturally love or are not married to, rather with the ones you naturally love and are married to !!!
WHAT? satifying your lust with married and partners you love! so here goes your idea about LUST! Can you see the clear contradiction dear?


It becomes clear when we understand that the men were not natural homosexuals.Thus performing their lust on men and not the opposite sex is not natural for the men addressed in the story of Lot. This is why Lot says, you are placing your lust on people who you are not naturally attracted too. Also the word Shahwat shows already these men were living out of bounds, since of the 13 times Shahwat is used in the Qur'an, 11 times it is negative, and the other 2 it refers to eating fruit in jannah without restraint. Thus Shahwat is already a negative behaviour, as it refers to uncontrolled craving.

I have checked several Classic Arabic dictionaries and also asked a Classic Arabic professor, and all agree the term Shahwat refers to one-sided craving. An egoistic craving. Uncontrolled and not meant for the benefit or pleasure of all people.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

I don't know where my previous answer cum question went. Any way dear Arnold what you said still does not answer my question. Even if we take all that you say as it is what does it mean when Quran says

...you satisfy your lust with men/women you don't naturally love etc INSTEAD OF (satisfying your LUST!!!) with men/women you naturally love and are your spouses.?

Now in light of what you have explained about not being natural homos and about lust how do you explain such wording? why would it be said, you satisfy your lust on ABC INSTEAD of XYZ? It's like saying, you should satisfy your LUST with XYZ. WHY IS THAT?

Please clarify this point only as I can't seem to grab it.


jazakAllah
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam sister,

You are clearly missing the point. Let's give it in a different more simpler form. Let's say you are fan of the football club blue, but suddenly you are hanging out at club red without being their fan or whatever. You are called back to club blue and told; 'What are you doing, you are enjoying the game at club red instead of club blue!'

If you were part of club red, you couldn't be addressed on going back to club blue, since you are not interested or part of it.

What I understand from you is that the verse is a universal exclusivist verse, you read as saying, ALL men must only shahwat with women.

I read the verse differently, I see a group of men being addressed that is not natural to THEM, that specific group. Not to all men on earth, as research is clear that 5-10% of the male population cannot even have shahwat with women as their and/or biological make-up makes them not attracted to the opposite sex.

Thus the men of Lot are addressed on their behaviour as it is not natural to THEM. This is logical since it is IMPOSSIBLE that a whole city are all natural homosexuals. So them, that specific group it is said, you (who are heterosexual), are having shahwat with men instead of women?!

The same kind of behaviour was also present among heterosexual males in Roman and Greek society, and today we see it for example in prisons.

Thus the verse addresses perversity in public and going against their own nature. But it doesn't say homosexuality in all its forms is unnatural as research and society have clearly proven the opposite.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

Please don't try to read what I have NOT written only to emphasize your point. I never wrote men shahwat instead of women but if you read the post carefully it's not about men and women at all.

I wrote on the basis of what you said that Alrijaal can be taken gender free term, as XYZ! Ohh but being gender free is different from being of one gender of certain kind isn't it? Well alright suit yourself dear.

I am not trying to understand the verse because of any research done by some people but the to understand the reason why such words have been used. There could be something wrong with our understanding but the Book as I have come to understand is Divine!

So my point remains the same why it has been said and I put it your way again, "any group of people you satisfy your shahwat INSTEAD of certain group of people".

The difference between your example and this is, your example is that "going back to watching or being fan of blues" is morally correct! but if taking shahwat in this verse as what you yourself have explained, the example to understand my point should be...

oh group of people why you abuse certain group of people instead of certain others.

It's like saying abusing this certain kind is what has been allowed like satisfying lust/shahwat in the verse as you have understood it to reach your understanding (please read your previous posts)!

Hope you don't miss my point NOW!!
Wink

jazakAllah

UmeAimon
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Arnold Yasin Mol
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam,

In my previous posts I had already explained that Rijaal & Nisaa can be understood gender-free in CERTAIN verses depending on the context (like for example the first line of 4:34). I introduced the concept for the understanding of marriage and relationship laws given in the Qur'an.

So your above post has nothing to do with the discussion on the Shahwat verse since it is clear from the context that here the terms Rijaal-Nisaa are gender-related. Since the verse is not talking a universal law (as the social & law verses that are directed to us), but is explaining a history, the context clearly defines gender-based meanings of rijaal-nisaa.

I hope you understand now, since you clearly didn't understand my earlier post where I already explained when gender-free understandings apply.
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UmeAimon



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 141
Location: UAE

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salam,

Oh ok maybe I missed the point. So My point of "satisfying shahwat instead of" in verse 7:81 had nothing to do with the gender free point after all. Here we are back to square one:)
i don't understand why it came up anyway!

So now tell me how do you understand this wording "instead of your wives", when this shahwat is supposed to be love-less and by your understanding condemned by Allah SWT and the basis of your understandng of this verse as talking about non-natural homosexuals instead of homosexuals in general?
You mean to say it's ok to have shahwat with a zaojah but not male zaoj as with the later, it will make it unnatural!! what shahwat are we takling about here to be satisfied with wives?

Please answer quickly as I want to move on from this point to te research and use of words in quran.

jazakAllah
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