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Obedience to the Prophet is Politcal Obedience

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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Obedience to the Prophet is Politcal Obedience Reply with quote

Tasreef of the term 'Obey the Messenger'

The traditionalist view:


Proof of the importance of the Sunnah:

1) The Qur’an speaks of the importance of the Sunnah, for example:

(a) Allah says: “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah…” (an-Nisa’: 80) Allah described obedience to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger…” (an-Nisa’: 59)

(b) Allah warns us not to go against the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allah says: “…And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” (an-Nur: 63)

(c) Allah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” (an-Nisa’: 65)

(d) Allah commands His servants to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life…” (al-Anfal: 24)

(e) Allah also commands His servants to refer all disputes to him: “(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger…” (an-Nisa’: 59)

What Allah says about the Quran in the Quran:

-There is no doubt in this Book (2:2).
-Allah has taken the responsibility to explain it (75:19).
-Allah says He has revealed the Quran and He will protect it (15:9).
-Allah’s revelation to the Prophet (PBUH) is written in the Quran (6:19). There is no verse in the Quran which says that Allah’s revelation to the Prophet (PBUH) is outside the Quran.
-Momineen are asked to obey the revelation from Allah (7:3).
-The Prophet (PBUH) was asked to obey the revelation sent down on him (10:109).
-He was asked to follow the Quran (75:18).
-Allah required the Prophet (PBUH) to follow the blessed Book sent down on him (6:155).
-The Prophet (PBUH) used to judge matters according to the revelation sent down on him (5:48).
-Those who do not judge matters according to what Allah has revealed are Kaafirs (5:44).
-In the Quran, Allah has completed His message and no one can change anything in it (6:34, 6:115).
-The Quran encompasses the message of earlier revelations (5:48). So, the truth of earlier revelations is now contained in the Quran.
-In it there are no contradictions (4:82).
-Allah has called the Quran "Tibyaanan li Kulli Shaiyin (16:89)". This means it explains everything.
-Allah gives many verses on a particular topic over and over again (6:105, 17:41). This means that we have to collect all the verses on a topic in order to understand it fully. This is the Divine method of understanding the Quran.
-The Prophet (PBUH) was required to solve all human differences through the Quran (16:64).
-The Prophet (PBUH) was required to admonish and remind people through the Quran (50:45).
-The Quran itself is light (5:15). So, it is not dependent on another source of light.
-This light (i.e., the Quran) has been given so that human beings, using this light, can travel safely on the path of life (6:122).
-Allah undertook the responsibility to collect the Quran (75:17). [The logical conclusion from this verse is that the Quran was collected and put together by the Prophet (PBUH). Allah decided the sequence of surahs and verses and no one else besides the Prophet (PBUH) could have received the direction from Allah on how to put them together. There is no verse in the Quran asking the Prophet (PBUH) to delegate this extremely important responsibility to anyone else.]
-Whatever difference human beings have, the decision is with Allah (42:10). [Since Allah’s decision is contained only in the Quran, it is logical to believe that it has the power to serve as the constitution for the entire world, creating a universal brotherhood. The model implemented by the Prophet (PBUH) is a proof of this.]

What do we know about the Quran, and what do we know about Hadith and Sunnah:

-The Quran is the final word of God.
-It has been preserved exactly as it was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH).
-The Prophet (PBUH) left only the Quran in written form since he forbade writing of hadith during his life time (Sahih Al-Muslim).
-The Quran was written by very honorable scribes (80:16).
-There were many companions who had memorized the entire Quran word by word.
-Unlike the authenticity of hadith, there is no dispute among scholars (Sunni or Shi’ia) about the authenticity of the Quranic verses.
-There are six Sunni books of hadith which are normally referred to as "sa’hha sitta" (six true books). Shi’ias have their own four important books of -hadith. These were compiled and written based on (a chain of) oral narration mostly in the third century Hijrah or later.
-Scholars agree that the chain of narrators transmitted the meaning of hadith and not the exact words of the Prophet (PBUH).
-It is generally agreed that the chain of narrators, no matter how reliable, were humans and subject to human errors. Consequently, their narrations -are subject to errors. The Quran is the only Book beyond error.
-As a consequence, ahadith are classified into several categories starting from "correct" on one side to "coined" on the other. (Verses of the Quran do not have such classification.)
-Shi’ia scholars do not accept Sunni books of hadith. Even among the Sunnis, there are some ahadith which are accepted as ‘correct’ by one group of scholars (Ahlul-Hadith, for example) but not by other groups (like Ahlul Fiqh and others).
-The authenticity of hadith is not equal to the authenticity of the verses of the Quran.
-"The sayings of the Prophet (PBUH) and the sayings we find in the books of ahadith are not necessarily one and the same." (Maulana Maududi, Rasayel-o-Massayel, Volume I, 1951 edition, page 270).

-Sahih Bukhari: This was compiled by Imam Muhammad Isma’il Bukhari. He was born in Bukhara and died near Samarqand in 256 A.H. (or in 260 A.H.). It is said that he collected about 600,000 ahaadith. From these he selected about 7,300 for his book, having discarded the rest.
-Sahih Muslim: This was compiled by Imam Muslim Bin Hujjaj. He was born in 204 A.H. in the famous Iranian city of Nishapur and died in 261 A.H. He collected about 300,000 ahaadith and selected 4,348 for his book.
-Tirmidhi: This was compiled by Imam Abu ‘Isa Muhammad Tirmidhi. He was born in the Iranian city of Tirmidh in 209 A.H. and died in 279 A.H.. He collected 300,000 ahaadith and selected 3,115.
-Abu Daawood: He was born in 202 A.H. in the Iranian city of Sistaan and died in 275 A.H. He collected 500,000 ahaadith and kept only 4,800 in his book.
-Ibn Maaja: This was compiled by Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad Bin Zayd Ibn Maaja. He was from the Iranian city of Qazwin. He was born in 209 A.H. and died in 273 A.H. He collected 400,000 ahaadith and selected only 4,000 for his book.
-Nisayee: This was compiled by Imam Abdul Rahman Nisayee. He was born in the village of Nisa in the province of Khurasaan in Iran. He died in 303 A.H. He collected 200,000 and selected 4,321 for his book.

Traditional Islam refers to that we must obey Allah AND the Messenger, but they forgot this important verse:

4:59. O you who believe, obey God and the Prophet and those in authority among you; and if you are at variance over something, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the Last Day. This is good for you and the best of settlement.

So we now have these very important issues gained from our research:

1. The Quran contains the complete timeless Code of Law for the Islamic Ummah.
2. No outside Revelation is given to the Messenger, only the Quran.
3. We must obey the Messenger.
4. We must obey the Leaders of the Islamic State.

So to what realm does obeying the Messenger refer too? Muhammed was the ruler of the Islamic State. People had to swear an oath to accept him as their leader, he was chosen:

60:12 O Prophet! When believing women come unto you taking oath of
allegiance to you (they shall pledge that they will) -

- Not associate anyone with Allah.
- Not steal the rights of others.
- Not commit immodesty.
- Neither kill their children, nor deprive them of good rearing.
- Not indulge in fabricating slander, either overtly or covertly.
- Not disobey you in the Qur’anic Values.

When they have made the pledge, accept their allegiance and ask Allah to
bestow upon them the protection of forgiveness. For, behold, Allah is
the Protector, Ever giving for those who strive for it.

So this means the first Muslims were asked to obey Muhammed as a leader of the Islamic State, these decisions were made due to circumstances that they encountered in their time. These were always in line with the Quranic Values. But since their circumstances were truly circumstances of the 6th century in Arabia, these are timebounded and mostly cannot be used for modern times. Just like custom is timebound, as it is dependent on the knowledge of its age. So Sunnah does not refer to the custom of the Prophet, but to the bye-laws of the Islamic State that is determined according to its need of its time. This can refer to large matters as taxes to small matters as hygiene, which is determined by the situation and knowledge of the time.

To keep holding on to customs which have turned obselete is non-Quranic and illogical, and makes it dangerous to see these customs as Divine. This behaviour can be seen in the Quran:

7:28 (As an example) when people commit an indecency they say, "We found our forefathers doing it and Allah has enjoined it upon us." (Made it natural for us). Say (O Prophet), "Allah never enjoins indecency. Do you attribute to Allah of which you have no knowledge?"

Obedience to the Messenger refers to POLITICAL obedience, after the death of the Prophet, this obedience is shifted to the Khalif that comes after him, and so on and so on. This is why the Quran says:

3:144 Remember that Muhammad is only a Messenger. The Messengers before him have passed on. So, if he died or were slain, would you turn about on your heels? But he that turns about his heels, would not at all harm Allah. And Allah will soon reward those who remain appreciative (for Guidance. They shall reap the fruit of the Benevolent System here and then, in the Hereafter 3:101, 3:185, 35:10).

Obeying the Prophet can thus not be done anymore. This is why the first generations of Muslims did not write down any sayings of the Prophet, as his ruling was replaced by his succesor. And so obeying the Prophet has shifted towards obeying the chosen Khalif and Shura, counsel. This obedience can only be done in an Islamic State that upholds the Quran as its only rule of Law, and only upholds bye-laws that are in line with present needs of the Ummah and the Quranic Values.

So the obedience the traditionalists refer too is non-Quranic and based on Jewish Theology, where the obedience is only on an religious level, and can be thus followed under any non-Islamic form of State. This concept is false, as Islam can only be truly followed under a pure Islamic State. There is no State on Earth that has a Law System that does not contradict with the Quran and the need of its people. As long as there is no chosen Khalif and Law System that is in line with the Quranic Values, the obedience of the Prophet/Leaders has no value and is impossible.

This view is supported abundantly by the Holy Quran. The Quranic arguments may be summarised below:

1. In Islam obedience is essentially and basically due only to the Laws of Allah as embodied in the Holy Quran. "Shall I (Rasoolullah, PBUH) look for a judge other than Allah. He who has revealed to you a book defining things clearly"? (6/115).

2. He who does not adjudicate in accordance with the Holy Quran is not a Muslim (5/44).

3. Obedience to Divine Laws is not a thing belonging to the individual plane in the sense that one might, of his own, consult the Holy Quran, interpret it for himself and act according to his individual interpretation. The obedience has to be disciplined and ordered under an organised system (called State in the present day terminology) controlled by a central authority, the first central authority having been Allah's Rasool. Obedience to the central authority is obedience to Allah. Says the Holy Quran: "One who obeys the Rasool obeys Allah" (4/80), the Rasool adjudging everything according to the Holy Book (5/48).

4. Barring a few exceptions, the Holy Quran enunciates generally fundamental principles without touching subsidiary law. About these principles or the basic provisions, the Holy Quran says: "The Kalema (basic principle) revealed by the Nourisher has been made complete in truth and justice. There is none who can change His principles (6/116).

5. The reason for leaving out subsidiary laws from the Holy Quran has been explained thus: "Ask not for things which if revealed would inconvenience you, and if you ask for them while the Quran is being revealed, they will be disclosed to you....Before you a people (the Israelites) did ask for them and then disbelieved (and defied) them". (5/101-2). In elucidation of the above verses, a Hadith is cited which says: "Allah has placed on you certain obligations, do not violate them. Some things have been forbidden, do not go near them. Some limitations have been imposed, do not transgress them. Some things have been left unspoken of without being overlooked, do not probe into them".

6. The question as to how details, which have deliberately been left undetermined in the Holy Quran, will be formulated in the light of the Quranic principles, is answered by the direction given in the Holy Quran to Rasoolullah (PBUH) to "consult them (the believers) in the affairs (of the Society)" (3/158).

There are numerous instances recorded in Traditions showing how Rasoolullah (PBUH) consulted his Companions in the day-today affairs. This process of consultation was not confined to any particular sphere but covered all matters in which details were not given in the Holy Quran.

7. While he lived, Rasoolullah determined subsidiary laws in consultation with the Ummat. The question is as to what was to be done after his demise. The Holy Quran answers the question by saying, "Muhammad is but a Rasool. there have been several Rasool before him. Will you turn back on your heels if he dies or is slain?" (3/143). It follows that the process of framing laws within the frame-work of the Quranic principles was not to discontinue after the death of Rasoolullah but was to go on as before. Therefore, after his demise, the first thing the Companions did was to elect a Successor so that he could carry on the process of determining subsidiary laws and enforcing Divine Principles as did Rasoolullah himself. "One who obeys the Rasool obeys Allah" now took the form of "One who obeys the Rasool's successor obeys Allah". Rasoolullah himself is reported to have said: "You have to follow my practice and the practice of my mature and rightly guided Successors", (Mishkat chapter on adherence to Book and Sunnah). The Holy Quran directed Rasoolullah to "consult the believers in determining the affairs of the people" (3/158); it guided his successors by saying "and they determine their affairs by mutual consultation" (42/38). "Mutual consultation" within the ambit of the eternal and inviolable Laws given in the Holy Quran is the "way of the believers" (4/115) which should never be given up.

8. There is material available in the record of traditions of Rasoolullah and the doings of his Companions to show how subsidiary laws were formulated under the Khilafat-e-Rashida. The procedure followed was:

a) Where subsidiary law had not already been framed it was formulated by mutual consultation. For example no punishment was prescribed for drunkenness in the time of Rasoolullah. Hazrat Abu Bakr prescribed for it forty stripes, which Hazrat Umar later increased to eighty.

b) If a subsidiary law once enacted needed no amendment or change it was retained intact, just as any constitutional government would continue to enforce the laws of its predecessors until the need for a change arose.

c) Subsidiary enactment’s, which needed amendment in consequence of a change in circumstances, were duly modified. Since they were not prescribed initially by Revelation, it was not necessary that they should undergo changes through Revelation. Here are a few instances:

-Rasoolullah had fixed the amount of ransom for prisoners of war at one Deenar per head. Hazrat Umar fixed different amounts for different parts of the State.
-Rasoolullah (PBUH) did not prescribe rates of Zak’at for different varieties of produce of land. Hazrat Umar did so.
-For Taleef-i-Quloob, Rasoolullah used to give financial assistance from the State Exchequer. Hazrat Umar discontinued the practice.
-Rasoolullah distributed among the fighters the land acquired in certain conquered areas. Hazrat Umar abrogated this system.
-Rasoolullah allowed maintenance allowance at uniform rate. Hazrat Abu Bakr continued the practice. But Hazrat Umar re-fixed the rates in proportion to the services rendered by recipients.
-Rasoolullah did not realise Zak’at on tradable horses and the produce of the sea. Hazrat Umar did it.
-Hazrat Umar decided that the scheduled punishment for offences should be made light for belligerents and that the punishment of manusection for theft should not be inflicted on the famine-stricken.

Instances of this kind can be multiplied if those measures are taken into account which Hazrat Umar introduced initially. Their number, according to historians, ranges between forty and fifty. This number, however, is not the issue. The real issue is that the rightly guided Successors of Rasoolullah accepted and worked according to the principle that the decisions taken during the time of Rasoolullah could be modified, if the changed circumstances so demanded. They extended the principle to the decisions taken among themselves, and a Successor felt no hesitation in amending the decisions of his predecessor.

Another example:


The verses of the Holy Quran coupled with the evidence provided by traditions and history, reproduced above, support fully the view that it is the fundamental law of the holy Quran which is unchangeable. In the case of subsidiary laws formulated under it, the Islamic state constituted on the pattern of that of Rasoolullah, can affect changes to suit its current requirements. In the excerpt from his Lectures noted above, Iqbal has pointedly mentioned Imam Abu Hanifa and Shah Waliullah, Muhaddith of Delhi, who also supported the above view. In volume 13, page 390, of his book on history, Khatib Baghdadi states on the strength of Yusuf b. Isbat that Abu Hanifa used to say that "had I been a contemporary of Rasoolullah, I am sanguine that he would have adopted many of my views, since Din (Allah's way of Life) is, after all, but another name for good and sound reasoning". The historian goes on to say that Abu Awana stated that "One day I was sitting by Abu Hanifa when the Sultan's messenger called on him and said that his master would like to know how the case of a man who has stolen a honey-comb should be adjudged. Abu Hanifa replied promptly `if the value of the honey-comb be ten dirhams sever his hand'. After the messenger had departed I said to Abu Hanifa: "Are you not afraid of Allah? It has been reported to me by Yahya b. Said through Muhammad b. Haban and Rafi b. Khudaij, that Rasoolullah had said that for the theft of trifles like fruit and flowers, there can be no manusection. Hasten to help the man lest his hand be severed". Abu Hanifa reiterated calmly that "the view then taken has since lost its force". The thief suffered manusection.


Allah clearly told us that He gave Mohammad Al Kitab wa Al Hikmah and also other things that he never knew before, one of those things that humans didn?t know is how to perform the Salat for example, therefore Mohammad mission was to deliver those things to us in addition to the Quran and Hikmah as we will read in the Quran, let me start with verse 4:113


The Quran tells us in some verses that the messenger was to give the knowledge of Al-Kitab? and Al-Hikmah?, i.e. the Book and the Wisdom. Al-Kitab? or The Book refers to the Quran while Al-Hikmah? or The Wisdom, is something other than the Qur?an and it is the un-recited, hidden revelation which the messenger received outside of the Quran and which is contained in the Books of traditions.


When the Quran gives a concept then it does not leave it hanging in the air, but it also defines that concept. It is stated in certain verses of the Quran that the messenger of Allah was to give the knowledge of Al-Kitab? and Hikmah?. Now the Quran will itself define what is Al-Kitab, i.e. The Book or written laws, and what consists of Hikmah i.e. wisdom. The following verses inform us:

"Our Sustainer! and raise up in them a messenger from among them who shall recite to them your verses and give them knowledge of The Book and the wisdom, and proivide development to their personalities; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise." (2:129)

"Certainly Allah conferred a favour upon the believers when He raised among them a messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His verses and providing development to their personalities, and giving them the knowledge of the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error." (3:164)

In the above and many similar verses it is mentioned that the messenger is to give knowledge of the Book and the wisdom. The Book or Al-Kitab, refers to the Quran, as this is clarified in many other verses itself, e.g.

"Alif Lam Mim. That is The Book, (Al-Kitab) there is no perplexity in it, guidance to those who guard (against evil)." (2:1-2)

"And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book (Al-Kitab) of your Sustainer.." (18:27)

But traditionalists imply that Hikmah or Wisdom in the previously mentioned verses refers to something other than Al-Kitab, hence it is another type of revelation which the messenger received. According to them, this revelation which is identified as Hikmah, is the un recited hidden revelation of God, and is not contained in the Quran but it is to be found in the books of traditions authenticated by their sect. However to term the books of traditions as Hikmah is very wrong as the Quran itself clarifies what is Hikmah, as we shall see.
The claim that Hikmah is some revelation outside of the Quran is refuted by Allah Himself when after stating the divine values of the Quran, He says:

<Za_lika mimma_ auha_ ilaika rabbuka minal hikmah(ti), wa la_ taj'al ma'alla_hi ila_han a_khara fa tulqa_ fi jahannama malu_mam madhu_ra>

"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (17:39)

Thus the above verse identifies the Quran itself to be Hikmah, and it is confirmed that Hikmah is simply another attribute of the Book of Allah. In Surah Al-Qamar this is again repeated:

"There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them). Mature wisdom <Hikmat ul baaligha> but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not." (54:4-5)

Finally those who are under the misconception that Hikmah is <wahy ghayr matlu> i.e. the "un recited revelation" outside of the Quran, are clarified in the following verse that Hikmah is also <wahy matlu> i.e. recited revelation and is contained within the folds of Allah's Book, not outside of it. The wives of Nabi (S.A.W) are reminded:

<Wazakurna ma_ yutla_ fi buyu_tikun na min a_ya_til la_hi wal hikmah inal la_ha ka_na latifan khabira>

"And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware." (33:34)

The above verse clearly states that ?Along with the Ayat of Allah, ?Hikmah? was also recited in the homes of the wives of Nabi (S.A.W), thus this nullifies the claim that ?Hikmah? consists of ?un recited revelation?.

The Quran makes it evident that Hikmah?is not some revelation outside of the Quran, but is simply another attribute of the Quran itself. All the messengers of Allah, received Al-Kitab i.e. the written laws and injunctions for governing human society, but along with the law, Allah also gave the wisdom or rationale behind that law. Since the law of Allah was not meant to be applied forcefully upon people, and it is something that the people have to accept using their faculties of reason and free will, therefore whenever the Quran ordaines a law, it also gives the wisdom or reason behind it and asks us to reflect upon the benefits we derive by implementing the divine law in our societies. E.g. After giving the injunctions for modest dress for women, the Quran states the wisdom or Hikmat behind that law as:

"..This (dress code) will be more proper, that they may be recognised, and thus they will not be given trouble.." (33:59)

Similarly the rationale i.e the Hikmat behind the prohibition of intoxicants and games of chance is identified when it is stated:

<Yas'alu_naka 'anil khamri wal maisir(i), qul fihima_ ismun kabir>

"They ask thee concerning intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great enervation" (2:219)

The above verse identifies intoxicants, i.e. liquor, drugs, gambling etc as "Ism" , an Arabic word which means "Enervation" i.e. such a thing which produces weakness and atrophy in something. And it is no secret what gambling, drugs and alcoholic drinks are doing to human society nowdays. Thus Allah asks us to think, ponder and reflect on the benefits of implementing His laws and even gives the wisdom behind the divine injunctions. That is why among the often repeated attributes of the Qur?n, one is <Al-Hakeem>, that is, "The Book of Wisdom", as the following verses identify:

"Ya Seen. I swear by the Quran full of wisdom. Most surely you are one of the messengers." (36:1-3)

"Alif Lam Mim. These are verses of the Book of Wisdom. A guidance and a mercy for the doers of goodness," (31:1-3)

Thus it is evident from the above that Hikmah is not some un recited revelation outside of the Quran, but one of the attributes of Allah's Book it self and refers to the rationale and wisdom that is given behind the divine laws. Those who insist upon claiming that Hikmah refers to the books of traditions of their sect, should be asked, that in the Quran, Allah says that He gave Hikmah to: David (2:215), Jesus (3:48), The Followers of Abraham (4:54), Luqman (31:12) etc, So were all these people given the books of traditions of a certain sect if Hikmah is implied to be as such?

Every tribe, city, household has their own sunna or habits. And the Quran is the guide to the ways (sunna) of the ones who had become before Muhammed.

One SUNNA of the ones before us:
2:183. O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.

6:34. Messengers before you were denied, but they were patient for what they were denied, and they were harmed until Our victory came to them; there is no changing the words of God. News of the messengers has come to you.

4:26. God wants to make clear for you and guide you to the ways of those before you, and pardon you, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

For example, Moses's SUNNA:
28:43. We had given Moses the Scripture after We had destroyed the earlier generations; as an example for the people and a guidance and mercy, perhaps they will take heed.

7:128. Moses said to his people: ?Seek help with God, and be patient; for the land is God?s, He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the end will be to the righteous.?

28:21. He exited the city, afraid and watchful. He said: ?My Lord, save me from the wicked people.?
22. And as he traveled towards Midyan, he said: ?Perhaps my Lord will guide me to the right path.

Or Abraham's SUNNA:
29:16. And Abraham when he said to his people: ?Serve God and be aware of Him, that is better for you if you knew.?

60:4. There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in God alone.? Except for the saying of Abraham to his father: I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God.Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny.
5. Our Lord, do not let us become a test for those who rejected, and forgive us. Our Lord, You are the Noble, the Wise.
6. Certainly, a good example has been set by them for those who seek God and the Last Day. And whosoever turns away, then God is the Rich, the Praiseworthy.

Does the Quran not have all the sunna's of the prophets which are important for us to know? Muhammed was taught by the Quran of the things they did not knew.

3:43. O Mary, be devoted to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel.
44. This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed.

These are the things we did not knew. Things we did not know about Josef:

12:102. That is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not amongst them when they arranged their plan and were scheming.

This is a traditionalist claim someone made to me:

From the above no one can deny that Allah said to His prophet that He sent the Quran to him to explain to us what we differ and surely the Quran is one of the things that believers will differ in it, ? لِتُبَيِّنَ ?, therefore and clearly the prophet had another mission in addition to the delivery of the Quran, and because the explanation was ASSOCIATED with the Quran only as seen from 16:64, then we can use the Quran to qualify what we know about the hadith with ease. In fact one of the hadith that I read confirms that simple fact, that the Quran qualifies the hadith, this is common sense that the words of the Creator should qualify the words of His creatures. It won?t make any sense if taken the other way around.

Yes , it is true that it is Muhammed that explained to them what they differed about, but where does he get his knowledge from?

16:64 And We have not revealed to you the Book EXCEPT that you may make clear to them (explain) that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

He must use the Book to explain to them. It is Muhammed's voice, but it is the Quran from where he get's his knowledge from to explain it to them. It is the same as saying:"I explain to you, through the Quran that this appraoch is wrong." Is it me that explained it? YES. But did i use any knowledge besides the Quran? NO. Is the sentence thus formed that it clearly shows that i explain it? YES. Does this mean i didn't use the Quran? NO.
The verse says it so clearly, it is even scary you miss this. Let's use this in a sentence again with different wordings. "I have written this post, only so you can explain to them about why not following hadith as wahi."

Does this in any way imply to something else next to my post? NO. Does it imply that the purpose of this post is to use it to explain to others? YES. It clearly says; This post is given, SO you can explain it to them. The exact same thing implies for verse 16:64. The Quran was revealed to Muhammed only so he can explain to them things USING the Quran. Is it still Muhammed to them that explained it? Yes, it is his voice. Does it in any way imply to other explanations outside of the Quran? Certainly not.


"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

"In their (all the messengers mentioned in the Quran) narratives there is certainly a lesson for people of understanding. It is not a 'Hadith' which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe." (12:111)


"Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly elucidated <Kitab an Muffasalla>." (6:114)

"And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have detailed<Fassalnahu> with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe." (7:52)

"A Book of which the verses are distinctly elucidated <fussilat ayatahu>, an Arabic Quran for a people who know." (41:3)

"Indeed We have made the revelations distinct for a people who take reminder <qad fassalnal ayyati li qaumin yazekerun>". " (6:126)

"Thus do We make the revelations distinct for a people who reflect. <nuffasil ul ayyati li qaumin ya-tafekerun>" (10:24)

"Thus do We make the revelations distinct for a people who use their reason. <nuffasil ul ayyati li qaumin ya-qilun> " (30:28)

"And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a distinct elucidation of the book <Tafseel al-Kitab>, there is no doubt in it, from the Sustainer of the worlds." (10:37)

"So leave Me and him who rejects this Hadith; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not." (68:44)

"In which Hadith, then, after it, will they believe?" (77:50)

"Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; In which Hadith would they then believe in after this?" (7:185)

"Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe." (29:51)

This is a mix of several books and my own comments and statements.


Authority of the Quran by Kashif Ahmed Shehzada
Obedience to the Prophet by Dr. Mansoor Alam

The Basis of Legislation in an Islamic State by GA Parwez
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assalamalikum wa Rahmathullahi wa Thaala wa Barkathuhu
Respected Br Arnold

Brother you become driving force to this forum after Br Dr Shabbir Ahmad
Alhamdulillah. BY using your perceptual and conceptual faculties to undderstand people what is actually obidience to prophet as per Quraan. This is the best presntation. And it is no doubt Allah bestows wisdom according to His Laws . And whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted a great wealth.

2:269. He bestows wisdom according to His Laws (12:22, 28:14). And whoever is granted wisdom has indeed been granted a great wealth. And only people of understanding remain mindful of what they learn. (Making good use of their perceptual and conceptual faculties helps people attain wisdom 17:36).

Fee Amanillah
Ali Bin Ali Alharbi (Al Madina)
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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aleikum Salaam my dear brother,

Thank you for your encouragements, I will always do my best for Islam inshAllah.

May Allah keep increasing us in knowledge.

The above presentation is only the first draft, I hope InshAllah to perfect it over time. Many books have been written on this subject, but we need a short presentation on the subject that will explain it all in short simple terms, as what I had intended above.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearest Arnold,
The shortened version of your post is as follows:

* There is the necessity of the state because of the need for governance, amr and nahy. al-amr bi 'l-ma-'ruf wa n' nahy 'an al-munkar , so the state takes up where the family unit leaves off...

*The individual nass of the Qur'an are zahir and the body of law of Islam is self-contained. But it is further subdivided into categories such as obligatory or allowed acts. On that which the Prophet was silent, it is considered mubah. But the nusus are indisputable.

*Islam limits free will in ways not understood by the West. Free will, is subjugated to Divine Will and the purpose of an Islamic State is not to allow for the self-determination of the individual, rather commonality of good of the state.

*Regarding the whole issue of alcohol, there was a progression of thought regarding that issue in the Qur'an. Some other issues, such as smoking, are addressed from Qiyaas, such as the one given in the 17th century by the Ottoman empire, after tobacco reached the region. The ruling was based on a Hadith regarding not eating garlic and then showing up at the masjid with the offensive smell. Smokers breath, fell in the same category. So while the qiyaa fell under a category of disliked or Makrooh, it later became Haraam based on An-Nisaa 29, when it was found that smoking causes lung cancer.

Informative post, Respected Arnold. smile

Tammy Swofford
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salaam all.

Hadith and hadiths considered from God are dangerous. I was talking with a friend at school, i was saying to him that there is no stoning in Islam. I simply said "but there is no verse on this in the Quran, only a verse saying to give flogs to those commiting zina" he said "zina in this verse do not imply adulter, but only fornication" When i said to him "zina can mean both, in many traductions zina have been translated into alduter and fornication" he answered "in hadith is told that the prophet was stoning people for adulter" and "hey if you wanna follow unkown people, do so, i don't care if you go astray by following some strange imam"

Well at this moment, i was like, what the fork!? Why immediatly following people and what they say? I only read what the man is saying, then go check the information where i can.

Ok so before the prophet peace be upon him received the revelations, the laws used where not divine. When the prophet (peace be upon him) received the Quran, then he used it to clear the problemes.

The Quran is unchanged and proptected by God. 15:9
In the Quran there is no death penalty for adulter or fornication.
It is instead written that you have to give flogs to the ones commiting zina. 024.002

And there are verses (from 069.044 to 069.046) That says that if the messenger was about to invent saying in the name of God, then He would

YUSUFALI: And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,
SHAKIR: And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,

YUSUFALI: We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand
SHAKIR: We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,

YUSUFALI: And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery,
SHAKIR: Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.

It says messenger. Actually it talks about the prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) ? I don't want to assume things if i might be wrong.

So now we see that there is no verse for stonning in Quran. But in hadith only.

We see in the arcticle of Arnold that the Prophet peace be upon him was told to clear the problemes using the Quran.

Then how come he could stone people to death if there is no such law in the Quran? More, death penalty is very important. We have a verse saying to give flogs to commiters of zina. Receiving flogs is less important than being judged to death penalty. How come there is a law saying to give flogs to zina-ers, while there is no verse saying to kill them?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am at work, so do not have access to notes. But I believe a woman cannot be accused of zina without four witnesses. So the criteria to bring such an accusation, is a very strong one. In other words, consider very carefully, bringing such accusation. If you look at the story of Maryam, the mother of Isa, there was an accusation brought against her by the community. (Qur'an 19:2Cool If you read, the accusation was not even supportable, because the crowd alluded to her own honorable family and it sounds like there was a whisper going through the community, in other words, a rumor. If you read ayat 30, Isa spoke and in ayat 32 he blessed his mother.

Zina is forbidden, and the actual wording, is to block all paths that lead to it. But paths that would lead to accusation without merit, should also be blocked.
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Arnold Yasin Mol

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peace Yosemite,

I can understand your frustration and you will start to see many more nonsense attributed to the Prophet. The Prophet is called the Mercy for the world, not the tyrant they made of him.

Also I may advice you not to use translations has Shakir, Yusuf Ali and Pickthal as they all used Hadith and a very limited view to translate the Quran. This is also why we do not allow them on this forum.

Just study hard on the Quran and Islamic History, how Hadiths were compiled and why, and you will see more and more how Islam got distorted by the clergy and kings.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some reason the last post reads with a "2" and a smiley face instead of ayat 28 from Maryam. Not sure how I managed that! smile

Back to the topic at hand of zina, the scholars now grapple with the issue of DNA and the ability for a paternity test to bring accusation by millions of biological witnesses! Yet Islam teaches us that man is the bed-owner, and as such the husband is to claim that which springs from his wife's womb as being his own. This is for the protection of the family name and heritage.

As such Prophet Muhammad also stated that those adopted were not to be called "sons" rather your brother. Once again, the sanctity of the husband or the bedowner, to claim his offspring and secure his lineage. Just my thoughts!

R/Tammy Swofford
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asalam o Elikom all,

Nice to see you Tammy. Just wanted to add my thoughts here.
I hear much about lineage and stuff but can't help wondering if so much emphasis is put on lineage or family name in Islam then what happened to lineage of prophet Mohammad pbuh?
AND I cannot help thinking everytime I read "Isa son of Marry" in Quran Smile

Maybe it's not about lineage or family name as these are for the purpose of identification only according to Quran. The adopted son thing is, but just minor detail of what blood relationships really are on which other conditions, like mariages and inheritance are put! The same is true for the adopted daughter.

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